Michael Vick's unpaid dues: Why dog advocates aren't moving on

[Neecy]

There are just no words...

"What Michael Vick did was not just dog fighting," said Marthina McClay of Our Pack, a pit bull rescue group in Santa Clara, and the owner of one of the Vick dogs, Leo. "It went so far beyond that, and most people who defend him are uninformed. They don't really realize what Michael Vick did."

If you're one of the people McClay is talking about, let me invite you into Donna Reynolds' nightmare.

Reynolds is the co-founder of Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pitbulls (BAD RAP), an East Bay organization with a national reputation for rescuing and rehabilitating pit bulls. They rehabbed and cared for many of the dogs seized from Vick's Bad Newz Kennels after his arrest in April of 2007.

She's definitely not what you'd call a fragile flower, and she's been working with ex-fighting pits for longer than a lot of the people reading this have been out of kindergarten. It's fair to say she's seen the worst things that people can do to dogs, but there's still a story she can't get out of her mind.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/1...

I deliberately avoided posting the most graphic parts of this story. It's stomach-turning. But THIS is why many of us will never forgive Vick and continue to think he has no place in the NFL.

[chimpymustgo]

1. If only these people cared as much about healthcare for HUMANS. Vick paid his debt. move on.

[butterfly77]

3. Exactly...

some of these fruitcakes said they rather see children die than dogs or animals when this incident happened.

They just want to use this issue for animal rights they know that there are plenty of people who do cockfighting,pitbulls and pigs fighting and no telling what else but they try to play like they are so damn outraged.

I was outraged years ago about this and a lot of issues now I don't really give a damn because I have come to realize that a lot of people in this country are stupid ass hell.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

16. some of these "fruitcakes" as you call us

I identify with those people because I am an animal rights advocate, believe you should value all life whether it is human or not and not extending value to other living things debases your ability to connect and empathize with life in general. To claim that some of us would rather see children die than an animal is offensive to me and many others but since I am a forgiving person I will forgive you and chalk it up to ignorance.

You may want to come down on the side of defending what Vick did, which your post is essentially doing when you deflect the nature of Vick's crimes and turn it around on those who find what he did reprehensible. I feel sorry for you if that is what you are doing.

[Myrina]

17. +10

[Mad_Dem_X]

85. +100

[joeybee12]

25. Oh, for Phucks' Sake!

Why do you assume people who care about animals DON'T care about children? Stupid, stupid, STUPID!

[Dogtown]

30. Last time I was around one

I discovered that children ARE animals, as am I. As virtual "innocents", I think neither children nor dogs deserve the kind of treatment the vicious bully Vick administered to his dogs.

The 'gladiator glamour' that enraptures those who apologize for him is quite telling; they are no more evolved than the savage Vick himself.

[butterfly77]

96. Because someone on here said so at the time..

[lukasahero]

143. I'd like proof of that if you don't mind

And if you can actually find one poster who literally said they'd "rather see children die than dogs or animals", I'll apologize. Until then, your claim is just more bullshit.

[Ignis]

167. What, you want specificity instead of broad-brush smears?!

Well, it's unlikely to happen, but I salute your efforts.

[lukasahero]

171. LOL - well yeah, kind of what I was hoping for

And yeah, again, I didn't think it was really going to happen either. I was hoping just to make a point.

[Texasgal]

170. Post a link...

Back it up.

[AndrewP]

112. Exactly

If people don't understand that you can care for BOTH, then fuck them.

[fascisthunter]

133. your post should get deleted

[butterfly77]

138. Why because dogs are suppose to be more important ...

than people?

[fascisthunter]

145. no... because you called people fruitcakes

people who you claim love animals more than people, which I don't believe nor do I think is the case.

[butterfly77]

162. If something doesn't relate to you...

it shouldn't matter,did it name you specifically..

[fascisthunter]

163. how about you grow a brain, because you aren't helping your cause that much

I don't need to relate to what you said, but I wanted to for a good purpose. Now grow the fuck up.

[hlthe2b]

5. These issues are not mutually exclusive...

Humanity is marked by compassion for the weakest among us--human and otherwise.

[QC]

10. Around here they are--one can only care about one issue at a time, and it damn well better

be the issue that some self-styled Lady Bountiful of the Internet is pushing at the moment.

Of course, in the real world, far from where Vick's apologists live, people who have no compassion for animals generally take the same attitude toward people.

[JanMichael]

7. "These people" probably do.

what makes you think that the people who care for those animals don't care about people just as much?

[Kalyke]

38. You know - you can care about both animals and humans.

Vick has not paid his debt, morally, and who are you to tell me to "move on."

[Solomon]

39. Wow! Says GOD!

Oh beneficient and wonderful God, I pray that you cause the rain to fall on the parched earth, the better to feed your children.

Amen.

[nyc 4 Biden]

90. NEWSFLASH: Our Judicial System Isn't Infallable.

Many convicted of crimes have done too much time and many haven't done enough.

Do you agree with this statement genius?

And to everyone else on this thread attacking animal rights activists.. you should check out Free Republic, you'll be welcomed with open arms.

[Solomon]

175. WTF?

Speak english.

[Ignis]

176. Seems ridiculously clear to me, and I speak English.

1. The US justice system isn't infallible, and thus:

A. Many of those the justice system convicts serve too little time in prison relative to the severity of their crimes.
B. Many of those the justice system convicts serve too much time in prison relative to the severity of their crimes.

The poster then asked whether or not you agree with the above assessment.

So your problem with this poster's command of the English language is...what exactly?

[Flaneur]

47. Vick has paid his debt legally.

I'm moving on. You can do what you want.

[Orsino]

52. What other debts do you believe might exist in this situation?

What other issues remain that you think ought, at some point, to be addressed?

[arcadian]

54. There is legal debt then there is societal debt.

People certainly didn't "move on" in the OJ case.

[Celebration]

106. well, OJ wasn't convicted and didn't serve time for the crime

That was the injustice.

Vicks served time.

[Raineyb]

42. +1 n/t

[Johonny]

51. Hate to agree with you but

I can't remember the last Leonard Little DU thread I've read.

[Arugula Latte]

63. Humans are not the end-all and be-all of the planet.

But, humans are pretty much the worst and most destructive animal on the planet.

[RamboLiberal]

71. Fuck that - Don't tell us to move on - Vick is a piece of shit & didn't pay his debt

For this kind of cruelty! Vick didn't do time for this!

"The details that got to me then and stay with me today involve the swimming pool that was used to kill some of the dogs," Reynolds wrote on her blog. "Jumper cables were clipped onto the ears of underperforming dogs, then, just like with a car, the cables were connected to the terminals of car batteries before lifting and tossing the shamed dogs into the water."

She continued, "We don't know how many suffered this premeditated murder, but the damage to the pool walls tells a story. It seems that while they were scrambling to escape, they scratched and clawed at the pool liner and bit at the dented aluminum sides like a hungry dog on a tin can.

"I wear some pretty thick skin during our work with dogs, but I can't shake my minds-eye image of a little black dog splashing frantically in bloody water ... screaming in pain and terror ... brown eyes saucer wide and tiny black white-toed feet clawing at anything, desperate to get a hold. This death did not come quickly. The rescuer in me keeps trying to think of a way to go back in time and somehow stop this torture and pull the little dog to safety. I think I'll be looking for ways to pull that dog out for the rest of my life."

Vick did all that and more to his dogs, and even threw family pets into the pit with fighters and laughed while they were mauled, according to a witness who testified to federal investigators.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/1...

And why do you think those of us who care about this cruelty don't care about children, healthcare, torture, etc.?

[ladywnch]

92. I fully expect that given the chance Vick will be involved again with dog fighting

he will just make sure that none of it is in his name this time. I don't believe for one minute that he regrets or even understands that there is anything wrong with what he did. The only real question is, will he wait till his playing days are over or not? He and his friends are just sick people with no regard for life (animal or human) and I'm sure they'll be back at it as soon as they can come up with enough cover for it.

[Raine]

105. Yup, I care about the abuses

ot ALL whether they be four legged or two legged and I resent very much any insinuation that I don't (which I see here often).

[Raine]

104. WHY do you and others insist on pitting one group

against the other?? You know some of us care about BOTH animals AND people and work to make the World a better place for both!

[dana_b]

190. wow! what a concept!

Think we can do that? REALLY??!!

I'm with you 100%. Like a lot of people here, i find it easy to give to both human and animal causes.

[fascisthunter]

132. no... we won't

[VMI Dem]

2. I'm glad Vick is moving on and has been given a second chance.

He has paid his debt to society.

[butterfly77]

4. Now,it is time for ...

Bushco to pay their debts to society..

[joeybee12]

26. I'm glad he's so sincere he negotiated his television deal while in prison...

...feel free to turn the other way, and don't see reason which might disrupt your celbrity worship.

[montanacowboy]

6. This scum will never pay his debt on this earth

What you do to the least of these.....

and that is what he did, unspeakable and he will answer someday to a higher power

It is amazing what people forgive and forget

[QC]

12. People will forgive anything for those who can throw a ball

or look nice in a bathing suit.

[Hepburn]

24. I will never forgive that POS nor will I forget.

I hope he rots in hell. Fuck, Vick.

[blueamy66]

28. I'm with ya!

POS is right.

[TorchTheWitch]

70. Amen and amen!

He's a piece of shit and will never get any forgiveness from me. Some things are simply unforgivable and unforgetable.

[Mad_Dem_X]

86. I completely agree!

[ElboRuum]

56. And if he's remorseful and penitent...

...and if such a higher power should be, that higher power will probably allow him his entry.

I mean, if all of these religious texts and all mean anything to anyone.

[southpaw]

8. Vick got off way too easy

The only thing he's sorry for is getting caught.

Ahhhh, but that's all over now. He's a sports superhero again. Earning millions, living like royalty, basking in the adulation of millions of little boys and their dads!

[chatnoir]

21. Don't come between men and their balls

This guy's never been sorry and never served time for animal cruelty (only conspiracy to bankroll dogfighting due to the plea deal).

And yet there are Vick apologists b/c the guy was some idiot football player.

Disgusting, really.

[Thothmes]

99. If Vick had not been a famous athelete

the Feds would have never got involved in the dog fighting issue anyway.

[DoctorMyEyes]

9. I tried to read this to my husband

But got choked up and had to wait a minute before I could go on. It's just so disturbing and terrible. Unforgivable.

[imdjh]

11. Im not a vegetarian, but even I know that the problem is that animals are property.

Animals are property, we kill them and eat them or wear them or feed them to our pets. It is the reason that if your neighbor kills your dog, he owes you only the replacement cost. The law does not recognized your dog as a friend or family member, a source of comfort or joy. Your dog is worth no more than his replacement cost.

And that's why we can't get everyone on the same page. Yes, we all think that dogfighting and animal abuse are bad, very very bad. And then we go out for hamburgers.

[imdjh]

13. Im not a vegetarian, but even I know that the problem is that animals are property.

Animals are property, we kill them and eat them or wear them or feed them to our pets. It is the reason that if your neighbor kills your dog, he owes you only the replacement cost. The law does not recognized your dog as a friend or family member, a source of comfort or joy. Your dog is worth no more than his replacement cost.

And that's why we can't get everyone on the same page. Yes, we all think that dogfighting and animal abuse are bad, very very bad. And then we go out for hamburgers.

[kjackson227]

14. This guy has some MAJOR character flaws. He may have served...

his time, but hopefully he is receiving some SERIOUS mental health help. There is no way in hell that I can defend someone so cruel, but I do hope he's learned his lesson.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

15. I am usually a forgiving person

I know what Michael Vick did and have since the incidents, I cant forgive him and never will. I am no psychologist but I tend to believe that what he did qualifies him as a sociopath. No forgiveness from me ever.

[ElboRuum]

18. I used to think this way about it.

I was greatly chagrined by the Eagles giving Vick a place on the roster. As an Eagles fan, of all that negative that COULD be said about the team, its fans, whatever, the organization always acted, as a whole, ethically. When they signed Vick, I really thought that they'd finally lost it, so hungry for a championship that they'd sign a guy with this much baggage attached.

Then a friend of mine said something to me that made me rethink the whole "no punishment is too great for him" attitude that I'd taken. He simply said that if someone hadn't given him a second chance, he'd probably not be where he was. Where he is, just for the edification of those curious, is the typical lot of a typical working class guy, so I can only imagine what the other place he referred to was.

It's amazing how a lifetime of hard knocks, bullshit, and the acquired cynicism it creates in us can cause us to forget the simple and direct lessons that we were taught as children.

Second chances are important to everyone. Whether we fuck up unintentionally or with great impunity, we should be given at least one shot to prove to both ourselves and everyone else that we are penitent for our acts. While I haven't forgiven Vick completely, I do my best to keep at the front of my mind the fact that, as a human being, he makes mistakes, some of which we can't overlook but which people desperately want and need forgiveness in order to move on from the failures of their past and lead better lives in the light of the lessons they learn. That's kind of hard to do when no one will let you forget for a second just what an asshole they think you are.

Sympathy towards your fellow humans does not have to come at the expense of your love for animals, and the reverse is also true.

So, while I certainly understand those in this thread who feel as they do, that no punishment is too strong, having felt that way myself, I can no longer hold that anger. Maybe it's just vestiges of my Catholic upbringing percolating up, but a part of me knows that an inability to forgive is the sign of weak character, and I'm afraid that's just not me.

[marmar]

19. Fantastic post.....

[Neecy]

20. The only weak character belongs to Vick.

[ElboRuum]

37. No. You are wrong.

Righteousness and humility are difficult to reconcile, aren't they? I understand. I, too, felt that way, as I suggested. But whatever Vick's sins are, they are his to bear. His actions, however, do not excuse me from my own weaknesses of character, and I think many of us forget that; and whether or not many of us realize it or simply feel justified in it, there is no virtue to be found in lacking the ability to forgive. There lies only revenge and vengeful people have little claim to virtue.

Whether Vick makes good on this second chance he's been given can be the only true judgment of whether he is remorseful of what he's done.

[Ignis]

101. "Whether Vick makes good on this second chance"

He's already had that chance, and he turned it down:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/10/1...

[ElboRuum]

110. And the point is across the plate... swing and a miss!

What is that, strike two?

I love the link though, this particularly:

"We understand Vick is trying to right his wrongs and is very interested in redemption, but you can't find redemption without acknowledging your victims," Racer said. "Making amends to the dogs themselves would have helped to create some closure for many of us, especially those people who worked so hard to keep them from being destroyed. It seems that Vick is not ready to go there."

I love how Racer seems to be the expert on what constitutes penitence, even going so far as to invoke the ever so holy "redemption". Redemption in the eyes of... Racer? He does not owe them this. If you don't understand that penitence is not following some fictitious 12-step program rule or pleasing those people who believe they've been wronged somehow, then you've got no idea about it. In fact, from this, it seems that these people are more interested in their own sense of closure (the "frontier justice" mentality I mentioned to another poster) than his penitence.

The point is this: I choose to allow him this second chance, and it will be in the spirit with which true second chances are given, without my own personal metrics as to whether or not he is worthy of it or any expectations I have as a result. It's his life and if he chooses to simply walk away from this and live rather than prostrating himself before the wishes of everyone who believes he got off light, I wish him well.

Even if he blows it and goes back to doing shady things, whatever form they take, I am not going to feel one bit foolish for extending that second chance to him, because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO.

Your mileage may vary. If you can't manage it, fine. You think he needs to suffer at your righteous hand, fine. You haven't within you to forgive him this and let him be on his way, fine. No one is even asking you to. That's what I like about my personal belief system, it doesn't require others to agree.

[Ignis]

121. "You think he needs to suffer at your righteous hand, fine."

Please post a link to where I said he needs to "suffer," or retract your specious judgment of my character.

Because as it stands, you're just making shit up.

[ElboRuum]

128. I've got a better idea...

How about I DON'T post a link where you said he needs to suffer. That's unnecessary, because I was making an inference about your statements in the tone they were made.

How about I DON'T retract my judgments of your character because I believe them accurate.

Why don't you, instead, just accept the fact that I think you're one of those people whose sense of vengeance overshadows their sense of compassion, even as you try to convince me (and possibly yourself) otherwise?

I think that'd be a better idea, by miles.

On edit:
PROTIP: If you ever feel that you have a problem with what I say, there's that pesky little ignore button where you'll never have to see another thing I post, ever, ever, ever again.

[Ignis]

136. Getting caught in a lie isn't any fun, is it?

Unless you can provide a link to the behavior you've accused me of--or perhaps convince us that you're telepathic--then you have absolutely no right to attack my character.

It's baseless, puerile, and against the DU rules to attack the person rather than to criticize the words they've posted.

So put up or shut up.

[ElboRuum]

158. See Reply #155. n/t

[Jax]

53. Exactly

Neecy gets it.

[Raineyb]

55. If that helps you sleep at night with your oh so sanctimonious sense of superiority

but I think you'd have a hard time convincing others of that.

[Ignis]

102. You never feel superior to child molesters or serial killers?

You just think, "Hey, there's another human being, just like me. Sure, maybe he's going through a rough patch right now, but it's our duty to offer him all of our love and support. I know in my heart of hearts that Chester didn't mean to hurt anyone, and if he did...well, he's said he's sorry, what more do you want?!"

Really?

I'll take you at your word if you say that's so, but I have my doubts that many of us are that saintly.

[ElboRuum]

111. No, Ignis...

You just have a hard heart. Maybe you think that's OK. Personally, I don't.

It doesn't take a saint to forgive. You just don't want to.

[Ignis]

120. "You just have a hard heart." -- Nice attack; shows your colors.

Yeah, I'm one of the most cold-blooded, hard-hearted vegans you'll ever meet. That's exactly why I donate countless hours of my time working for causes that don't benefit me personally.

How many ex-cons have you personally hired? I've helped more than a dozen find gainful employment over the past five years.

[ElboRuum]

127. Perhaps not about many things...

...but your capacity for compassion for the human condition seems awfully dependent on your moral judgments.

Just because you're a vegan doesn't mean you can't be cold. Just because you volunteer doesn't make you incipiently virtuous. Thousands of good deeds do not erase your shortcomings, whatever they may be.

And it's not an attack to point out what you believe is the truth. Perhaps your disagreement makes it so to you.

[Ignis]

135. You're free to criticize my behavior or actions...

But how dare you think you can judge my heart.

If you can't see the difference, then it's not worth my time trying to explain it to you.

[ElboRuum]

157. See Reply #155. n/t

[Brickbat]

22. Very well said.

[QC]

23. Don't you think that a second chance requires some kind of repentance,

or at the very least a bit of remorse?

The only regret Vick seems to have is that he got in trouble. He is still speaking of what he did in the passive voice, as something that he "allowed to happen," as though the dogs got sick because he left them with a sitter who forgot their vitamins.

[ElboRuum]

31. Yes, but he does not owe that remorse to ME.

Nor to you.

Penitence is not a bold statement of "I'm sorry" to all of those you may have offended or disappointed, it is revealed over time in the acts of the life which one chooses to lead from that point. Any person can say they're sorry, but words are, in fact, cheap. Only time will tell if he has actual remorse and he deserves the opportunity to prove it.

[QC]

33. I agree on the nature of penitence. It's not all about making dramatic public gestures.

So far, though, Vick seems unable to admit his own agency in the things he did. I hope he will someday act from genuine remorse, because he is ain an excellent position to do something about dog fighting, but so far it seems that he still views what happened to his dogs as only tangentially related to his own actions.

It's like the old politician's favorite line: "Mistakes were made." That's a very different thing than "I made a mistake."

[ElboRuum]

44. That's the point I'm trying to make though.

He does not have to admit it. Not to you, not to me, only to himself.

Having remorse does not require him to accept responsibility for the sins of others, so whether he is or isn't in an excellent position to do something about dog fighting, or if he is whether he chooses to act on that position is immaterial to whether or not he is remorseful.

I choose to give him that second chance. I choose to do so without judgment. Others may differ, but I'm falling back on the idea that I, too, have faults and I, too, have made and will make mistakes. I'd prefer to treat others with the same kind hand as I would want for myself.

[la_chupa]

35. he can prove it without being paid $$M to play football n/t

[ElboRuum]

46. Honestly, what does that have to do with this?

I'm being serious. If playing football is his job and someone offers him a job doing just that, he shouldn't? Where it makes no sense is how one somehow is relevant to the other.

[Raineyb]

48. Apparently, he has to be unemployed to be sincere I suppose. n/t

[Ignis]

68. So there are only two options--unemployed or millionaire? (nt)

[Raineyb]

72. Have you any clue how hard it is for a black man without a record to get a job?

Now add a record. Without the NFL he would more than likely be unemployed. And he still wouldn't have paid enough for the sackcloth wearers here.

[Ignis]

83. So let's change the system, not glamorize dog torture. (nt)

[ElboRuum]

108. If you're still looking to carve out your pound of flesh...

...and looking for me to desire that as well, you missed the entire point of everything I've said.

[Ignis]

123. Unless RaineyB is your sock puppet...

...your post makes no sense whatsoever. Why on earth would you jump in the middle of our sub-thread to suggest that I want you, specifically, to desire to torture Vick?

Despite your melodramatic hand-wringing over the state of my soul and the hardness of my heart , I don't believe I have ever wished ill on Mr. Vick. So, unless you can provide a link to a post where I've done so, you should apologize for your unwarranted attack.

Of course, I don't expect you to actually do so, but it would be the right thing to do.

[ElboRuum]

131. Well...

Is it so out of the box to believe that someone would agree with my thoughts on the matter? Sockpuppet... feh.

I never suggested that you wanted to torture Vick. The term "pound of flesh" is an idiom that simply means you want further punishment for him, and anyone of reasonable intelligence that's read any of your thoughts on the matter should be fairly able to deduce that he's not been penitent to your satisfaction. So, that being said, commenting on the rest of your post would be moot at best, since it would be correcting every last statement you made on basis of the fact of one early misunderstanding.

I'll only go so far to say that I never attacked you, so your apology is not forthcoming. Had I actually attacked you, you'd have your apology.

[Ignis]

139. And here comes the back-pedaling.

You can use your Telepathy Hat to "deduce" whatever "truths" you like from my posts, but don't you dare put words in my mouth.

If I were to say something as cowardly and disingenuous as "ElboRuum obviously hates Jews because he used the Shylockian term 'pound of flesh' with a straight face," I would expect DUers to jump all over me, demand I retract the statement, and badger me into apologizing. Because that's the kind of bullshit personal attack that we aim to avoid while posting on a moderated, community forum. Don't believe me? Re-read the DU rules.

So if you can't show me a post where I said I want Vick to suffer in any way or that I want him to undergo further punishment further, you've simply been caught in a lie. Sure, other DUers have said that, but I'm not other DUers, and I'm not responsible for their actions or words.

Back-pedal furiously if you like, but you've provided no evidence to support your conclusion.
In English, we call that "making shit up."

[ElboRuum]

155. Whatever, Last Word Larry/Laura...

Your posts have convinced me that I'm wasting my time talking to you. Everything in this last one of yours is a combination of misunderstanding, raving, and outright nonsense. Caught in a lie. I share my opinion, and it's a lie. OK. Sure. Fine. I'm lying. Lying about what? Oh, I don't know, use your imagination. What does it matter? I don't have evidence to support a conclusion I didn't make. OK. Sure. That's fine, too. Backpedaling and making shit up. OK. Sure. Fine. That statement couldn't hold a thimbleful of water, but whatever, I don't really care. Read the rules? I never attacked you, but fine, I'll throw myself on Rule-Number-Hasn't-Been-Written-Yet, click the alert button on MYSELF, and supply as the reason "I've broken a rule that doesn't exist, the one that states 'If you don't attack somebody, but they think you did, but you didn't, but they're really, really sure you did, and swear on a stack of bibles, but you didn't, you are in violation of DU rules.'".

All I do know is that you seem awfully determined to /have the last word/be offended/be combative/make no sense/ no matter what I say or how I say it. If you really want the last word this badly, fine, it's yours.

We're officially done here.

[Ignis]

160. ...Swiftly followed by overdramatic obfuscation.

Gee, why would anyone be offended and attempt to defend themselves when some anonymous Internet Tough Guy says bullshit like, "You just have a hard heart?"



So you can paint me as the villain of the piece and play the victim all you like, but a careful reading of the posts (and timestamps thereof) in this thread will show that I was in no way uncivil to you until you called me out and attacked my character. (See your very first response to me, post #111.) It's called "Tit For Tat" in game theory, and it's a fairly good strategy for dealing with interactions in anonymous media like the Internet.

In other words: Don't sucker-punch me and expect me to thank you for it.

Stuff that frop in your pipe and smoke it.

[Ignis]

178. Oh, and since it's all the rage, I'll express an "opinion."

When one stands up to a bully, that bully often reveals himself to be a coward.

[ElboRuum]

187. This I have to respond to.

If I came off as bullying, it was not my intent. For this misunderstanding, and any part I had in promulgating it, I issue my apology in the measure it requires.

However, I would be remiss if I didn't state that I don't believe my expressing what my opinion of what your statements say about you, right or wrong, as bullying in the slightest. Perhaps you were offended or hurt by my frank words (and at the time, I believed those words to be correct based upon what your words were saying about you), but my intent was exactly to express a simple opinion in the simplest way possible.

However, I am no bully, and certainly no coward.

I am trying to put an end to an unintentionally hostile interchange between two people who have little cause or reason to be hostile to one another by walking away from it while it still has a small measure of civility.

If you should perceive such as cowardice, it would be disappointing, to say the least.

[Ignis]

188. Apology accepted, as is your olive branch.

I'd just like to voice my last thought on the matter:

There is a vast difference between saying "You are X" and saying "That statement is X."
For example, smart people can say stupid things. That does not make them stupid people.

I applaud your maturity and forbearance in attempting to defuse the situation.

[Raineyb]

183. Who the fuck are you calling a sock puppet?

Some of us have other things to do besides bitch about someone's job being too high for their status you know and frankly I find the "I want my pound of flesh" people rather boring I have very little incentive to return to such a thread after I've said my piece.

I do my own fucking thinking fuck you very much.

[Ignis]

185. "Unless" means a conditional sentence.

http://www.edufind.com/english/grammar/if_conditional9....

I did not call you a sock puppet.
I do not think you're a sock puppet.
I cautioned another poster against answering in your stead--i.e., answering for you.

[Raineyb]

181. Who the fuck is glarmorizing it?

And what does that have to do with Vick returning to his job?

[la_chupa]

78. as a professional athlete he's a roll model

I think the NFL should have a morality clause, yes I do. Sorry but no thug should be allowed to play professional sports.

I don't care what he does. Did he actually graduate from VaTech or was that another opportunity he pissed away?

Yea he's a roll model ok, he's a shinning example of what sports run totally amuck are like.

[Raineyb]

81. If you allow your children to use ball players as role models then the problem

is with you.

[Ignis]

87. Yep, no one ever glorified sports stars before Vick.

Come on, kids aren't raised in a bubble. To claim that parents are solely responsible for whether or not contemporary American kids idolize sports stars is disingenuous, at best.

Parents can certainly try to steer the ship of childhood development, but unless you're a stay-at-home parent with a home-schooled child who's not allowed to watch TV, guess what? They're going to be exposed to culture at large, and our culture glorifies sports stars.

[Raineyb]

184. Like I said that's YOUR problem.

If people who play sports are more influential than you are then that says more about you. The "role model" line is just that quite the line of bullshit.

[ElboRuum]

95. I disagree...

...at least in the sense that a figure in the public eye, especially one in the entertainment or sports realm, has a moral obligation just in case someone is using him/her as a role model. If anything Vick serves great purpose as the cautionary tale.

[Ignis]

97. Yeah, the age-old cautionary tale of "Don't Get Caught." (nt)

[ElboRuum]

107. Your cynicism astounds.

And coming from me that's saying quite a lot.

[Ignis]

122. Because I don't believe Vick's press releases?

In that case, I'd much rather be a cynic than a sucker.

If Mr. Vick is so very sorry for being a dog torturer, why did he cop a plea bargain rather than confess his guilt on those charges?

[ElboRuum]

126. No, because you have even less faith in your fellows than I.

And by your fellows I mean those who would look on the cautionary tale.

[Ignis]

137. Yup, I don't have much faith in dog torturers.

Again, Vick hasn't shown any remorse for his actions, he copped a plea to avoid facing a jury on charges of animal abuse, and he's avoided several attempts by AR organizations to work with them against animal abuse.

So you can cry that mean ol' Ignis is a bad, bad man all you like, but I've made my judgment of Vick's character based upon his actions, rather than a Pollyanna-esque refusal to see the man for what he is: An unrepentant dog torturer who had the misfortune to get caught.

[ElboRuum]

156. See Reply #155. n/t

[joeybee12]

27. I'm sorry, but you've been connned by the thug's lies...

...that's all Vick is, a thug, an unrepentant thug.

[ElboRuum]

32. You are entitled to your opinion.

Rather than get annoyed by the ridiculous and, honestly, rather offensive suggestion that my attitude change had something to do with Vick himself, which it did not, I'll just use the same general principle with you as I do with him and forgive you this.

[Orsino]

50. Yeah. While I don't believe it's possible to "pay" a "debt" for violent crimes...

...there can't be contrition or atonement without some sort of opportunity. While I don't believe for a minute that whatever sickness drove Vick to these depths has suddenly been cured, if the law frees him, we'll have to challenge him to do better with the rest of his life.

Will Vick do something about dog fighting and other forms of torture, or will he merely retreat into his life of isolated privilege? How will we know that he is not the same twisted person he was a few years back?

[ElboRuum]

58. Second chances...

"Will Vick do something about dog fighting and other forms of torture, or will he merely retreat into his life of isolated privilege? How will we know that he is not the same twisted person he was a few years back?"

Hold on, let me get my crystal ball out and dust it off here...

I see... I see... it's becoming clearer... yes...

Oh, yeah. We won't. And it really isn't for us TO know. The point of this is that only he will know for sure, and the only way WE will know for sure is if we know in the negative.

[Orsino]

100. That depends on whether he wants to make a public atonement.

There are all sorts of positive things he could do with his considerable resources.

But we're the ones who let him back out into society, apparently untreated. I would say this of those CIA torturers, too: should they be free to walk our streets?

[ElboRuum]

109. I consider myself a pretty virtuous person.

And I am in no way obligated to prove that to you by any statement or deed. I am in no way obligated to use whatever virtue I may possess to do the things I could possibly do to make the world a better place. Yet, you'd put that on him. Why?

If our legal system makes the determination that they should be free to walk our streets, then YES, OF COURSE, they should be free to walk our streets. What is it that sits in the back of every American mind that shows contempt for our system of justice every time our own personal sense of justice isn't satisfied? Are we all occupied by this "frontier justice" mentality, or is it just those that believe really strongly about something?

[Orsino]

124. This is the fallacy of extremes.

There is a vast gap between Vick's doing nothing to atone and his doing everything possible. I've seen only self-justification from Vick after a vague semi-apology. Rather than feeling some obligation to atone, Vick seems only to want to enjoy the privilege of being wealthy. I see a definite moral imperative for him to do something to prove himself--if only because you or I might meet him out in public--but am more disturbed that he seems to see none.

Our legal system has not made a specific determination about Vick's sanity, or about the sanity of those CIA torturers--yet I question any of these being allowed to walk free.

[ElboRuum]

130. Objectivity?

First, do you believe that his atonement has to fit a minimum set of criteria? Set by whom?
Second, if you see a definite moral imperative for him, does that necessarily mean there is one?
Third, if I question your sanity, should I also then question your being allowed to walk free, and should that questioning be actionable?

[Orsino]

165. These are strange questions.

First, I've just said that there are many, many things that could constitute atonement. I'm willing to be convinced, I think, but I've seen nothing yet.
Second, I've just said that there is a definite moral imperative for Vick.
Third, I hope you would find some basis for questioning someone's sanity--such as the serial torturing of animals for fun and profit.

[ElboRuum]

174. Well, they may seem strange...

...however, you didn't quite answer them completely.

The first question I posed also questioned who would set the criteria for such atonement.

The second question I posed also questioned whether or not your assessment of moral imperative qualifies as definitive objective statement of moral imperative.

The third question I posed asked if another person's questioning of sanity was actionable as well as whether or not there was basis.

All three beg the question in the subject line, the one about objectivity. Are we, as individuals, having our own personal feelings of varying degree about Vick's actions, capable of fairly and objectively setting parameters regarding how Vick should "atone" for his actions? And is not that uncertainty why we rely upon a societal judicial system to make that decision, to maintain a certain level of objectivity and certainty, and also why that system requires unanimity in the juries of its criminal courts?

In the absence of that objectivity, are we then not qualified to even begin to determine what the "appropriate" atonement would be should it exist, provided that any are due it?

[Ignis]

177. You're using "beg the question" incorrectly. (nt)

[ElboRuum]

179. So I've been told.

But, hey, what the eff, you know?

Wow. You just can't stay away, can you? I should be flattered.

[Ignis]

180. Fair enough. Don't sweat the small stuff.

[ElboRuum]

186. You know what's amusing/tragic?

I have a better chance of being understood in my meaning if I misuse it. If I use it correctly and in the appropriate context, most people wouldn't know what I mean. The misuse is that prevalent. Go fig.

[Ignis]

189. Try using "whom" correctly in complex sentences.

It can generate looks like a dog watching a card trick.

But really, these are advanced concepts. I'm happy if people can keep their homophones straight.

[ZombieHorde]

164. Torturing dogs to death is not a mistake, stealing a car is a mistake,

getting into a bar fight is a mistake. Torturing many animals to death, especially intelligent animals (a dog as opposed to a spider), is not just a serious crime, there is something disturbing going on in Vick's head.

[ElboRuum]

182. You miss the point.

I have decided to give him a second chance in life, and let him try to get back on the straight (without furrowed brow and scornful countenance). You don't have to, and if you choose not to, I can't say I blame you. There isn't anything that you said that isn't correct, and up until the point that this person of whom I spoke reacquainted me with a very basic truth that occasionally gets lost in the cynicism of adult life, I would have shared your sentiment.

But the reason I posted wasn't to hear a deluge of rationales to the contrary, although I did have some expectation that some people might look at it as coming to the defense of his actions. Far from it. To those I've tried to indicate that what passes for justice in this society has spoken, much to the dismay of those who'd have him do longer time, a more serious penance. But that is water under the bridge, so I can only hope he's wiser for the wear of what he HAS had to pay back to society.

Again, I don't really care about rationales. We all have rationale for believing and acting the way we do. The purpose of my post was as follows:

The OP gave point, I felt that a counterpoint from my own experience might be apropos. Some appreciated it. Some supplied their counter-counterpoint. And so on it goes.

If you are right, though, that there is something disturbing going on in Vick's head, maybe some serious help is what he needs. Just another thing to consider.

[Blue_Tires]

29. continuing to make Vick a lightning rod isn't going to help...

and the whole 'he wasn't punished hard enough' -thing misses the forest for the trees...for starters, there were probably a dozen close associates/friends/cousins who played just as heinous a role in helping run the kennel, and most of them got off light for testifying against him if they even got indicted...

secondly, and here is where the REAL opportunity was lost, imo... There is still a massive, secretive, big money dogfighting industry with trainers, fighters, promoters and bettors in almost every state (that seemingly no one in a position to do anything wants to admit to or investigate) -- The Vick story at first shed a pinhole of light on just how big it is (and how many other superstar athletes were potentially involved), but the more the media began to focus on Vick, the more time they gave other big names to quietly sever their ties with the fight industry...